Curse

Cebe · May 21, 2007, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Rits can't heal up a hex degen like a healing Monk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildmaster Cain

Weapons spells I neglect here, since I have little experience with them. You could use weapon spells to counter degen.

Indeed you could.

Point Number 1: Resilient Weapon. 5 Health regen AND 24 armor.

Point Number 2: Spirit Light Weapon is the equivalent of having 16 pips of health regen, 8 if they're not within earshot of a spirit. Healing Breeze is capped at 10 pips of regen. How does SLW not beat HB hands down for degen countering considering it costs 5 energy less? Oh, did I mention it's unstrippable, unlike HB?

Point Number 3: Weapon of Warding. 4 Health regen AND 50% chance to block.

(Numbers based on 16 Restoration)

imblo · May 21, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

learn to read... youre post is completely useless and your bar doesnt reflect any parts of my build

Thanks for some support and opinions on the issue, i havent played much pvp with restore rit, but i can definately see how spirits make them gimped in tight spots.

but for pve ... i guess i should just use heroes anyways

Learn to read? That's a bit harsh. Was trying to figure out some of the skills in your build. Divine spirit was puzzling without Mo primary then I realised you were using the long recharge for the synergy with deny hexes. Probably better off taking another hex removal skill (smite hex, holy veil perhaps even purge sig - with weapon swaps e-drain shouldn't be too much of an issue)

Contrary to what previous poster said, you do have an elite (spirit light weapon), although I'm not a big fan of it - you've got the spirits for the synergy, but melee characters tend to stray out of this range, thus not realising the full potential of the spell.

As for spirits, life is ok. I suspect you put gaze of fury to provide a longer lasting spirit to replace life. However, you'll be spending too much time putting spirits down and replacing them, instead of healing. I'd be tempted to swap life for bloodsong and dropping fury. It'll last plenty longer too as you've specced in channeling.

Finally, if you're worried about mobility and quick spirit dropping, consider replacing spirit light weapon with soul twisting, and the slot freed up from dropping fury for another 5e heal/direct damage channeling spell. When you've finished the battle, soul twist your bloodsong and move on. Next battle starts, you can get it back up in 1 sec.

The only issue here will be energy management, but you do have essence strike and I don't see energy management being any worse than in your previous build.

See how you go.

RagnarokFF · May 21, 2007, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Monks can't heal up a hex degen like a healing Rit can like suffering.

Fixed

Something like Recuperation will completely nullify weak degen from something like Suffering (Assuming Recuperation stays alive for its full duration).

ArKaiN · May 21, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Thank god all hexes do is degen, not say, 100% more casting time or recharging your skill for 60 seconds more.
Yeah, resilient weapon ownz Migraine. Not to mention what it does to deep freeze.
EDIT: Lets close this, shall we? How many top GvG guilds run Rits as their only healers? None. Is that because they're ALL prejudiced?
I'm not gonna comment on that "Rits just need one attribute to heal". Its just way too retarded.

Cebe · May 21, 2007, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

Thank god all hexes do is degen, not say, 100% more casting time or recharging your skill for 60 seconds more.
Yeah, resilient weapon ownz Migraine. Not to mention what it does to deep freeze.

So Rits aren't allowed to spec into another line, say, Inspiration for their hex removal then? Most monks out there use Glyph of Lesser Energy. Why? Their e-management sucks in general. Both sides have some disadvantages, and the hexes in question related to degen countering.

Besides, Protection Monks > Rits, so why can't a party have a Resto Rit and a Prot Monk? Why can't the Prot Monk take Hex removal? Why can't you have a Mesmer in the party with Hex Removal (now there's a REALLY "out there" idea)? Also take note of the title. It's about Healing, not Hex removal, but since it was brought up...Rits can spec into another profession's attribute line for hex removal...if they MUST. Personally, I'd rather have the hex removal on my Protection monk in the form of Divert Hexes or similar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

EDIT: Lets close this, shall we? How many top GvG guilds run Rits as their only healers? None. Is that because they're ALL prejudiced?
I'm not gonna comment on that "Rits just need one attribute to heal". Its just way too retarded.

My comments were in relation to PvE, as I rarely PvP. I will say, however, that every time I venture into a PvP thread everyone complains that people ONLY run the same team builds...so... *shrugs* ...this is the PvE forum anyways.

One thing I will say is people who evidently are cross because others are discovering that Rits are better healers than monks mean they have lost their Monopoly on healing as monks...

Sophitia Leafblade · May 21, 2007, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

So Rits aren't allowed to spec into another line, say, Inspiration for their hex removal then? Most monks out there use Glyph of Lesser Energy. Why? Their e-management sucks in general. Both sides have some disadvantages, and the hexes in question related to degen countering.

Besides, Protection Monks > Rits, so why can't a party have a Resto Rit and a Prot Monk? Why can't the Prot Monk take Hex removal? Why can't you have a Mesmer in the party with Hex Removal (now there's a REALLY "out there" idea)? Also take note of the title. It's about Healing, not Hex removal, but since it was brought up...Rits can spec into another profession's attribute line for hex removal...if they MUST. Personally, I'd rather have the hex removal on my Protection monk in the form of Divert Hexes or similar.

Celest Ftw!

And as ArKaiN inadvertently points out its prejudice against Rits. Rits, Paragons, Dervishs (although less so) and Paragons get highly prejudiced even mesmers suffer from the same thing. If its not a Monk it cant Heal, if its not a ranger it cant interupt, if its not an Ele it cant stand and look pretty, if its not a Necro it cant cast Hex's and if its not a warrior it cant do any damage.

But anyways back to the point, Rits can do a tremendously good job of healing there skill can generally outheal monk heal skills and maintain better energy (so they can fight for longer) People keep saying monks need better energy management - use a rit instead, problem solved. Yes monks have the odd one or two skill combos that can outheal rits however they are normally highly impractical or come at a Great cost (energy, tiem etc.) And as far as i know there isnt a Single Monk skill that can compare to: Life, Restoration or Preservation.

Rits maynot be the Ultimate Protectors like monks are but they can still do a good job at that too with Union and Shelter etc., especially in areas where enchants are removed like Candy.

Pyro maniac · May 21, 2007, 04:11 PM // 16:11

I don't like rits as full healer. Not because they're bad. But all skills seem so related with each other. Whe I play rit I mainly use a channeling build with 3-4 heals. I can still heal while needed but the group doesn't lack the offense then.
Also most rit heals require spirits or items to work properly. You still got the att points (maxing out resto isn't 50% of total AP) so putting them in channeling will allow me to choose Bloodsong as cheap spirit, not a sucky Preservation wich only goal is to be a cheap fast recharging spirit.

7 heals on rit is overkill. Spirit Light Weapon, Mend Body and Soul, Spirit Light, what other heal can you take ....

Trylo · May 21, 2007, 09:54 PM // 21:54

wow ... yay for flaming -_-

i wasnt trying to be harsh... his post sounded quite harsh to me in general...
ill try out soultwisting, that seems like a very good skill for my build for PvP, making the 'spirit problem' somewhat remedied...it actually sounds really effective ill have to try it

ps - gaze of fury is a 2 sec cast time spirit, thats why its there, its 1 sec less than all the others

can we compare rits to monks with skills that MAKE SENSE please?
healer's boon + heal other... yea lets compare that to a non-elite random skill from the rit line... great idea.

Why not something like Infuse Health and Transfer Life... one takes some setup, same cast, same cost, infuse has no recharge, transfer is 5 i think, theyre similar and both have downfalls for a spike heal (lose life/have a spirit)... infuse will heal for a bit more (maybe 50 some) but you also lose half your life.

ZB:Spirit Light. They both work no matter what, but they both have downfalls. they heal for similar amounts (DF excluded), one costs 5 less and isnt elite. (this is still quite a stretch for comparing IMO).

try to make good arguements people?

Threll · May 22, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Well... in all seriousness, I don't know why Life was mentioned as an "end all, be all" example for Ritualists. Heal Party with Divine Favor bonus just smokes it all to hell.

Don't get me wrong... I'm not choosing a side in this argument (though I'm actually leaning towards Prot Monk + Heal Rit as better than Prot Monk + Heal Monk), simply stating that Life, while a useful spirit if your build doesn't involve the Monk class, is just worse than Heal Party in terms of healing once the DF bonus is thrown in. I understand HP won't heal allies, only party members, but still... unless you kill the spirit yourself, you basically just have to pray that the heal comes when it is needed (instead of "healing" a healthy group, or perhaps only 1 person who needed it).

ArKaiN · May 22, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

One thing I will say is people who evidently are cross because others are discovering that Rits are better healers than monks mean they have lost their Monopoly on healing as monks...

Good try, but you fail. I have both a monk and a rit, and have used them in both pve and pvp extensively.
Rits HAVE to spec another prof's attributes to fill in their gaps. Monks do NOT. This is not a point we're discussing. I'm merely saying that if you do the math, monks will come out on top in every single scenario. The whole "rits>monks in healing" 's argument is based on screaming it loudly and ignoring math.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Rits, Paragons, Dervishs (although less so) and Paragons get highly prejudiced even mesmers suffer from the same thing.

You know why people are prejudiced against those classes?
Because most people don't know how to play them. Paragons, and paragons(lol) have been nerfed into oblivion, and now require exquisite gameplay in order to be effective.
Dervishes don't tank. They're not supposed to. They're melee AoE(same armor as a ranger, no shield, etc etc)
And mesmers are just underpowered, and everyone knows it. Go read "state of the Mesmer" on their threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Rits can do a tremendously good job of healing there skill can generally outheal monk heal skills and maintain better energy (so they can fight for longer) People keep saying monks need better energy management - use a rit instead, problem solved. Yes monks have the odd one or two skill combos that can outheal rits however they are normally highly impractical or come at a Great cost (energy, tiem etc.) And as far as i know there isnt a Single Monk skill that can compare to: Life, Restoration or Preservation.

This lacks any kind of basis on reality or proper theory. Preservation? Are you serious? 122(at attribute 16, no less) RANDOMLY every 4 seconds?
Life? 140 health AFTER 20 seconds, if nothing hits the spirit?
Man, the monks you've met must suck horribly.

Cebe · May 22, 2007, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

Good try, but you fail. I have both a monk and a rit, and have used them in both pve and pvp extensively.
Rits HAVE to spec another prof's attributes to fill in their gaps. Monks do NOT. This is not a point we're discussing. I'm merely saying that if you do the math, monks will come out on top in every single scenario. The whole "rits>monks in healing" 's argument is based on screaming it loudly and ignoring math.

You're angry. Your monk used to have a monopoly on healing in GW. You could leave missions half way through to annoy people. You could try to charge for money..and rits are taking that away from you, and you're cross, and that's ok. Maybe you'll come around in time.

More to the point, you're ONLY talking about speccing outside of one's profession for hex removal, when it comes to rits. Hex removal is easy to go to another profession for and 50% of the monks I play with use hex removals from the mesmer line instead of their primary profession. Maybe you should be ranting at them.

So onto monks. Due to their fantasmical energy management they generally need to go to the Elementalist's primary attribute for GoLE, or the "totally awesome" (/endsarcasm) mesmer inspiration line. How is that good? Ritualists have a LOT of in-house energy management. Sure, in Healing Prayers you have Healer's Covenant and Healing Light - both are elite and you either heal for less or hope target is enchanted. Not very good, really, is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

This lacks any kind of basis on reality or proper theory. Preservation? Are you serious? 122(at attribute 16, no less) RANDOMLY every 4 seconds?
Life? 140 health AFTER 20 seconds, if nothing hits the spirit?
Man, the monks you've met must suck horribly.

Personally I'm not a fan of Preservation, but I do use Life, and I've never had a problem with it. Being a healer, I stand towards the back. I don't run up front and place life next to a Margonite Sorcerer or a Ruby Djinn. I also take Feast of Souls for it, so, if the whole party is going down, Feast of Souls + Life is basically a "system restore" button...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Threll

Well... in all seriousness, I don't know why Life was mentioned as an "end all, be all" example for Ritualists. Heal Party with Divine Favor bonus just smokes it all to hell.

I'm hugely confused...
Life, if left for the full 20 seconds heals for 140HP when it dies.
If I need Life's healing before the 20 seconds is up I use Feast of Souls and at, say, 10 seconds, Life + FoS will heal for 173HP

Heal Party heals for a measly 126HP...assuming 13 Divine Favor.

How then does HP heal for more....I can only assume you're using Healer's Boon for it...but gl spamming a 15 energy party heal with 3 pips of regen.

ghostkai · May 22, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

i think ppl are focusing too much here on numbers, yes they both heal for shit loads, we've established that, but is that what it's all about? lets take into account in house energy management (sure you can outheal the world, but for how long? ^_^)and counters to hexes and conditions etc. and no more spam about GvG's and PvP this was a PVE question to start with, lets keep on topic.

Sophitia Leafblade · May 22, 2007, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Threll

Well... in all seriousness, I don't know why Life was mentioned as an "end all, be all" example for Ritualists. Heal Party with Divine Favor bonus just smokes it all to hell.

I take it you dont realise Divine Favor on Heal Party only triggers on the monk Casting it, none of the other party members healed gets anything from divine Favor. Granted Life takes 20 seconds to kick in thats its big drawback, but consider a 140 full party heal for 10 energy, while Heal party is just 84 heal for 15 energy (both at Attrib 16)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

Good try, but you fail. I have both a monk and a rit, and have used them in both pve and pvp extensively.
Rits HAVE to spec another prof's attributes to fill in their gaps. Monks do NOT. This is not a point we're discussing. I'm merely saying that if you do the math, monks will come out on top in every single scenario. The whole "rits>monks in healing" 's argument is based on screaming it loudly and ignoring math.

Ok you want Maths -

Heal Other + Healers Boons = -15e, 2 attribute lines, - 1 energy regen and Heals for 285
Spirit Light + Preservation = -10e, 1 attrib line, and Heals for 310

ok which combo heals more - the Rit Combo

lets look at the above mentioned healparty

Healparty - 15e, heals for 84, 8 member party = total heal 672
Life -10e, 20 sec delay, heals for 140, 8 member party = total heal 1120

Has the big drawback of 20 secs delay but for the energy usage and heal comparison Life out-heals Healparty

ok lets try condition removal skills then

Mending Touch -5e- point blank range, 63 heal only on condition removal, up to 2 possible removals at once
Mend Body and Soul -5e- 121 Heal guarantied and as many condition removed as u have spirits within earshot

Rit wins again

Ok lets try regen heal then

Healbreeze -10e-+9 regen for 10 seconds, 1 person (results in 200 healing in 10 seconds max, cast 2.5 times to match energy of recup, thats 500 healing in total)
Recuperation -25e-+3regen whole party, (results in 60 healing per person in 10 seconds, 282 healing for total length each person, team of 8 = total heal of 2256)

I think the Rit wins again, not to mention the rit is free to continue casting while Recuperation is still up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

You know why people are prejudiced against those classes?
Because most people don't know how to play them. Paragons, and paragons(lol) have been nerfed into oblivion, and now require exquisite gameplay in order to be effective.
Dervishes don't tank. They're not supposed to. They're melee AoE(same armor as a ranger, no shield, etc etc)
And mesmers are just underpowered, and everyone knows it. Go read "state of the Mesmer" on their threads.

People who beleive classes such as Paragons or Mesmers(and other prejudiced classes) have been "nerfed" into oblivion are clearly people who cant work out a successful build and so complain the class needs changing. What they need to do is stop playing on their core 5(no mesmer) professions and learn to use the other 5 classes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

This lacks any kind of basis on reality or proper theory. Preservation? Are you serious? 122(at attribute 16, no less) RANDOMLY every 4 seconds?

So in total u get 2745 heal total over a minute and a half for just 5 energy now if that isnt worth it i dont know what is. And while its doing that the Rit can continue healing others when needed or use attack skills etc.

Cebe · May 22, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

So in total u get 2745 heal total over a minute and a half for just 5 energy now if that isnt worth it i dont know what is. And while its doing that the Rit can continue healing others when needed or use attack skills etc.

I think the poink ArKaiN is trying to make is that you can't ensure Preservation will heal the correct person, and also it's range is pretty limited as it is not like other spirits.

I stopped using Preservation, however, I have been tempted to take it now and again as my rit healing build doesn't really *need* any particular elite. I'm currently trying out Spirit Light Weapon, although I often take Spirit Channeling as energy management, although I very very rarely need to use it.

The reason Preservation isn't as good as some Rit elites imo is because it's too easy to move too far out of range of it, especially for melee, although the total heal it can chuck out for 5 energy is certainly impresive.

As a cheap spirit to use for skills which require you to be within earshot of one, it's actually not too bad though.

ghostkai · May 22, 2007, 09:32 AM // 09:32

indeed but preservation like most other resto spirits are designed to alleviate healing within the team, not do it for you

glountz · May 22, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

k you want Maths -

Heal Other + Healers Boons = -15e, 2 attribute lines, - 1 energy regen and Heals for 285
Spirit Light + Preservation = -10e, 1 attrib line, and Heals for 310

ok which combo heals more - the Rit Combo

lets look at the above mentioned healparty

Healparty - 15e, heals for 84, 8 member party = total heal 672
Life -10e, 20 sec delay, heals for 140, 8 member party = total heal 1120

Has the big drawback of 20 secs delay but for the energy usage and heal comparison Life out-heals Healparty

ok lets try condition removal skills then

Mending Touch -5e- point blank range, 63 heal only on condition removal, up to 2 possible removals at once
Mend Body and Soul -5e- 121 Heal guarantied and as many condition removed as u have spirits within earshot

Rit wins again

Ok lets try regen heal then

Healbreeze -10e-+9 regen for 10 seconds, 1 person (results in 200 healing in 10 seconds max, cast 2.5 times to match energy of recup, thats 500 healing in total)
Recuperation -25e-+3regen whole party, (results in 60 healing per person in 10 seconds, 282 healing for total length each person, team of 8 = total heal of 2256)

I think the Rit wins again, not to mention the rit is free to continue casting while Recuperation is still up.

I think your math is rather good, except for skipping DF bonus in some cases.
But you conveniently hide the fact that Rits doesn't heal on demand. The conditionality of their heal is what kill them.
Life fail if you don't bring anything to kill it when the party needs it. Preservation fails as it doesn't heal what you need to heal or when you need it.
Both are spirits, so you must wait to place them to be effective and stay in the same place. Impossible to put in time if there is a bad aggro, impossible to use if you have to fall back or if they are destroyed and recharging.
That's why Rits will never be as good as monks: they heal more on the paper, but never when it is needed in reality.
I'd rather use a weapon of remedy-protective was Kaolai-Soothing memories Rit than a Spirit HEaler Rit.

Sophitia Leafblade · May 22, 2007, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I think your math is rather good, except for skipping DF bonus in some cases.
But you conveniently hide the fact that Rits doesn't heal on demand. The conditionality of their heal is what kill them.
Life fail if you don't bring anything to kill it when the party needs it. Preservation fails as it doesn't heal what you need to heal or when you need it.
Both are spirits, so you must wait to place them to be effective and stay in the same place. Impossible to put in time if there is a bad aggro, impossible to use if you have to fall back or if they are destroyed and recharging.
That's why Rits will never be as good as monks: they heal more on the paper, but never when it is needed in reality.
I'd rather use a weapon of remedy-protective was Kaolai-Soothing memories Rit than a Spirit HEaler Rit.

Actually Rits do heal on demand since they have non spirit skills too

and i did mention the big drawback to life is the time delay.

I also didnt mention that spirits are also good as a distraction when things have gone totally wrong and the party is retreating, they may die in a couple of seconds, but thats a couple of seconds extra u have to pull away from the enemy mob(s).

Spirits like Preservation and Recuperation etc. arnt meant to replace a healer, there meant to supplement one, it assists the Rit in healing, While the Rit is keeping everyone alive the spirit can heal the party in general and help keep the whole party's health up so the Rit has less healing to do, saving a considerable amount of energy. While the spirit is doing its healing effect the Rit can continue to use its other skills in other words, while a monk does not have this ability of any healing support it has to cast everything itself, making it much easier to run out of energy and for the team to be overpowered.

Yes i ignored DF mainly because this is from a second attribute line. If you really want the ultimate Healer as i pointed out earier in this thread u want a Monk using Rit skills for the divine bonus ontop of the rits amazing heals. Rits have the superior healing skills, monk have the divine bonus, combine them together and u have the best combo. However a monk using monk skills is vastly out performed by a Rit using rit skills.

Cebe · May 22, 2007, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I'd rather use a weapon of remedy-protective was Kaolai-Soothing memories Rit than a Spirit HEaler Rit.

Imo in a Rit healing build Weapon of Remedy and Vengeful Weapon do not do nearly as much as the likes of Soothing Memories, Mend Body and Soul or Spirit Light for the energy. As for weapon spells in a "Healing" Rit build I personally prefer Resilient Weapon and Weapon of Warding.

People seem to be whining about the time it takes to whack down a spirit. 3 Seconds for Life isn't long at all, and I manage perfectly fine to cast it before and during battle.

Protective was Kaolai is AWESOME. It heals for more than Heal Party since (which I didn't realise) Soph said HP doesn't trigger the DF bonus on all members. PwK is also Pre-cast and only needs to be dropped when required. When you drop it you regain more energy anyway meaning if the party is in need of further healing you have the additional energy of your staff to do so.

ZenRgy · May 22, 2007, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Rits can heal (with some bigger heals than monks with cheaper costs), but as far as solid protection goes, they're fairly weak unless you want to just go to a pure communing rit, but that limits your restoration.

Rits are a red bars go up class.
Monks are slightly more flexible, monks have hex removal in their own attribute lines and good damage reduction (prot spirit / spirit bond).
The majority of Restoration rits rarely use their secondary (from what I've seen anyway) so you can just dip into inspiration or divine favour for your hex removal.

Fishmonger · May 22, 2007, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Wow, i think this has bcome a war between the monks and the rits now, and i'll attempt to smoothe it over.

Yes, I'm a rit mainly, but I've worked with more monks than i care to think of. I usually run this build for healing

Spirit Light
Mend Body and Soul
Soothing Memories
Ghostmirror Light
Resilient Weapon
Offering Of Spirit (changes when i dont need my 2 20/20's)
Life
Flesh Of My Flesh

and balance my build with the other healer/prot. We have been arguing about "most people will take a _____ over a ________" but you forgot to realize most people take 2 healers! This leaves massive potential for a monk and a rit to work together! My friend (a monk) and I (a rit) can make a party almost damage free, because we both realize the other's weaknesses!
its as simple as

Rits handle conditions better
Monks handle hexes better
Rits handle energy better
Monks handle spikes better

If you remember that, It'll work. Monks, live with the fact that you are not the Gods of the party. Rits, just because we are underplayed doesn't mean it's the monk's fault =P

that's my say